The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. Thats my two cents for what its worth. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. 45 acp damage human body Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. So In a effort to Model. I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. Sound familiar?? The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. SEMPER FI. The bullet has far less weight and cross section than a .45 acp? After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. True. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. Yes, Alvin York killed seven Germans with seven rounds of .45 ACP ball, starting from almost 100m out, in front of superior officers who went out afterwards and kicked the dead Huns in the head before they made their reports. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. I have yet to see this. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. But why not? Generous readers sustain our work. Think the title of this article is misleading. George. It makes a bigger hole. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). WebSTI Tactical. This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. You might be able to talk to the first guy. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? I have shot pigs, goats, and deer in several countries with rounds from .22 lr and mags, 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 colts and .44 sol and mags in handguns. Okay all handgun are garbage. Its too small. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. Make your best shot number one. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. Riley, love your artical. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. I was told by a person in the government that the choice of 9mm verses any other round was decided by the cost and mass availability of the ammo periodFor Military, FBI, CIA, Police, Sheriffs and all governmen t branches The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. Oh boy, that could start a whole new area of discussion 1911 vs 1926, most common bullet weights, etc. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. too powerful??? #firearmtraining. Take this for what its worth. There are two effects of electromagnetic waves on human body. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. Human Body An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. I served in the USMC and in combat. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. The .45 knocked him on his ***. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). Be Safe Out There. 9mm Federal 150 grain Micro HST or Winchester 147 grain Ranger will expand 0.7", better than at least half the .45 defensive rounds out there (most common expansion is about 0.6", which is the same as many modern 9mm defense rounds), but there are also some.45 There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. The body's liver, pancreas and kidneys also can make about 1 gram of creatine per day. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. If knock down power is desired forget the 45 and get a 44 mag or get a 375 they kill most anything one shot. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? F=MA is not applicable. I carried a Colt 1911 while serving in Korea. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. I have used the 1911 govt. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. I can buy that. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. For those not in the military, go for what you want. He was 15.. Lee reloading gear. So its purpose is based on design. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. Possible off hand 200. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. I have been hand loading my rifle and pistol ammo since 1975. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. 9mm Vs 45 Has The Marine Corps Settled It? - Concealed Carry Inc Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. But thats a subject for another article. Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. Now thats hilarious. Anyone actually seen the effect of .45 jhp? | 1911Forum Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. A 1911 in 9MM? I carry a 10auto. Muscle memory is great thing. I would challenge anyone to shoot a 9mm against my 45 and, I promise my 45 will be the 9mm all day everyday. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. I carried an issue 45. Symptoms Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. Anyway great comments to all. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. I just had to get my 2 cents in. Love it. Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. Also quoting from the Marine Corps Times: The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the knock down power to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. View our Terms of Service Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. 10mm. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. If we had had 45acp in the hands of the FBI in most every one of these complete inept foul ups they would likely have never happened and the debate would only be Glock or 1911 45 acp. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse.
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